EDWARD SNOWDEN: I
 think that the public is owed an explanation of the motivations behind 
the people who make these disclosures that are outside of the democratic
 model. When you are subverting the power of government, that that’s a 
fundamentally dangerous thing to democracy. And if you do that in secret
 consistently, you know, as the government does when it wants to benefit
 from a secret action that it took, it will kind of get its officials a 
mandate to go, "Hey, you know, tell the press about this thing and that 
thing, so the public is on our side." But they rarely, if ever, do that 
when an abuse occurs. That falls to individual citizens. But they’re 
typically maligned. You know, it becomes a thing of these people are 
against the country, they’re against the government. But I’m not. I’m no
 different from anybody else. I don’t have special skills. I’m just 
another guy who sits there, day to day, in the office, watches what 
happening—what’s happening, and goes, "This is something that’s not our 
place to decide. The public needs to decide whether these programs and 
policies are right or wrong." And I’m willing to go on the record to 
defend the authenticity of them and say, "I didn’t change these. I 
didn’t modify the story. This is the truth. This is what’s happening. 
You should decide whether we need to be doing this."
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Edward
 Snowden’s actions have elicited a range of reactions. Jeffrey Toobin 
of CNN and The New Yorker writes that Snowden is, quote, "a grandiose 
narcissist who deserves to be in prison." Democratic Senator Dianne 
Feinstein, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said that Snowden
 should not be considered a whistleblower because, quote, "what he did 
was an act of treason." And Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South 
Carolina tweeted, "I hope we follow Mr Snowden to the ends of the earth 
to bring him to justice," language echoing what Senator Graham once said
 in the hunt for Osama bin Laden.
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, Douglas 
Rushkoff wrote on CNN, quote, "Snowden is a hero because he realized 
[that] our very humanity was being compromised by the blind 
implementation of machines in the name of making us safe," unquote. The 
editor of The American Conservative, Scott McConnell, wrote, quote, "If 
Obama wanted to do something smart, he should thank Snowden and offer 
him a job as a White House technology advisor." And Pentagon Papers 
whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg sang Snowden’s praises, writing, quote, 
"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more 
important leak than Edward Snowden’s release ofNSA material—and that 
definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago."
For more, 
we host a debate on Edward Snowden. Is he a hero or a criminal, 
whistleblower or a traitor? Here in New York, we’re joined by Chris 
Hedges, senior fellow at The Nation Institute; was a foreign 
correspondent for The New York Timesfor 15 years, was part of a team of 
reporters that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for the paper’s 
coverage of global terrorism; author, along with the cartoonist Joe 
Sacco, of the New York Times best-seller Days of Destruction, Days of 
Revolt . His most recent 
article is called "The Judicial Lynching of Bradley Manning" at Truthdig.org.
And in Chicago, Illinois, we’re joined by Geoffrey Stone, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School. His recent 
piece for The
 Huffington Post is called "Edward Snowden: 'Hero or Traitor'?" Stone 
served as an informal adviser to President Obama in 2008. In 1992, 20 
years ago, Professor Stone hired Obama to teach constitutional law at 
the University of Chicago. Geoffrey Stone is also author of many books, 
including Top Secret: When Our Government Keeps Us in the 
Dark and Perilous Times: Free Speech in Wartime: From the Sedition Act 
of 1798 to the War on Terrorism.
Chris Hedges, Geoffrey Stone, we 
welcome you both to Democracy Now! Professor Stone, I want to begin with
 you. In your piece, you say that Edward Snowden’s actions were 
criminal. Can you explain why you feel he should be in jail?
GEOFFREY STONE: Well,
 there is a federal statute that makes it a crime for public employees 
who have been granted access to classified information to reveal that 
information to persons who are unauthorized to receive it. So, from a 
simple, straightforward, technical legal standpoint, there’s absolutely 
no question that Snowden violated the law. And from that standpoint, if 
he’s tried, he will be convicted, and he is in fact, from that 
perspective, a criminal. Whether one admires what he did is another 
question, but it doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not what he
 did was unlawful.
The question, why I think he deserves 
punishment, is—he said it actually himself in the clip that you played 
earlier: He said, "I’m just an ordinary guy." Well, the fact is, he’s 
just an ordinary guy with absolutely no expertise in public policy, in 
the law, in national security. He’s a techie. He made the decision on 
his own, without any authorization, without any approval by the American
 people, to reveal classified information about which he had absolutely 
no expertise in terms of the danger to the nation, the value of the 
information to national security. That was a completely irresponsible 
and dangerous thing to do. Whether we think it was a positive thing in 
the long run or not is a separate question, but it was clearly criminal.
AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, your response?
CHRIS HEDGES: Well,
 what we’re really having a debate about is whether or not we’re going 
to have a free press left or not. If there are no Snowdens, if there are
 no Mannings, if there are no Assanges, there will be no free press. And
 if the press—and let’s not forget that Snowden gave this to The 
Guardian. This was filtered through a press organization in a classic 
sort of way whistleblowers provide public information about 
unconstitutional, criminal activity by their government to the public. 
So the notion that he’s just some individual standing up and releasing 
stuff over the Internet is false.
But more importantly, what he 
has exposed essentially shows that anybody who reaches out to the press 
to expose fraud, crimes, unconstitutional activity, which this clearly 
appears to be, can be traced and shut down. And that’s what’s so 
frightening. So, we are at a situation now, and I speak as a former 
investigative reporter for The New York Times, by which any 
investigation into the inner workings of government has become 
impossible. That’s the real debate.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Chris, 
how do you respond to the point that Geoffrey Stone made and how Snowden
 identified himself as an ordinary guy? Should any regular government 
employee or contractor be allowed to disclose whatever information he 
feels the public ought to be privy to, whether it’s classified by the 
government and his employer or her employer or not?
CHRIS HEDGES: Well,
 if—that is what an act of conscience is. And reporters live—our sort of
 daily fare is built, investigative reporters, off of people who, within
 systems of power, have a conscience to expose activities by the power 
elite which are criminal in origin or unconstitutional. And that’s 
precisely what he did. And he did it in the traditional way, which was 
going to a journalist, Glenn Greenwald and The Guardian, and having it 
vetted by that publication before it was put out to the public. Was it a
 criminal? Well, yes, but it was—I suppose, in a technical sense, it was
 criminal, but set against the larger crime that is being committed by 
the state. When you have a system by which criminals are in power, 
criminals on Wall Street who are able to carry out massive fraud with no
 kinds of repercussions or serious regulation or investigation, 
criminals who torture in our black sites, criminals who carry out 
targeted assassinations, criminals who lie to the American public to 
prosecute preemptive war, which under international law is illegal, if 
you are a strict legalist, as apparently Professor Stone is, what you’re
 in essence doing is protecting criminal activity. I would argue that in
 large sections of our government it’s the criminals who are in power.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stone, your response?
GEOFFREY STONE: Well,
 first of all, there is, so far as I can tell from
everything that’s 
been revealed, absolutely nothing illegal or criminal about these 
programs. They may be terrible public policy—I’m not sure I approve of 
it at all—but the fact is the claim that they’re unconstitutional and 
illegal is wildly premature. Certainly from the standpoint of what’s 
been released so far, whether Mr. Hedges likes it or not, or whether Mr.
 Snowdon likes it or not, these are not unconstitutional or illegal 
programs.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me go to a letter that you co-signed, 
Professor Stone, in 2006 with other prominent attorneys 
about NSA surveillance under President Bush. You were criticizing it. 
You wrote, quote, "Although the program’s secrecy prevents us from being
 privy to all of its details, the Justice Department’s defense of what 
it concedes was secret and warrantless electronic surveillance of 
persons within the United States fails to identify any plausible legal 
authority for such surveillance. Accordingly the program appears on its 
face to violate existing law." How do you compare that to what we’re 
seeing today?
GEOFFREY STONE: They’re two completely different 
programs. The Bush NSAsurveillance program was enacted in direct 
defiance of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The Obama 
program, if we want to call it that, was approved by Congress. That’s 
number one. Number two is, the Bush program involved wiretapping of the 
contents of phone conversations. The Supreme Court has long held that 
that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment, if there’s not an 
individualized determination of probable cause. The Obama program, if we
 want to call it that, does not involve wiretapping; it involves phone 
numbers. And the Supreme Court has long held that the government is 
allowed to obtain phone records, bank records, library records, purchase
 records, once you disclose that information to a third party. And there
 is no Fourth Amendment violation. So they’re two completely different 
programs.
AMY GOODMAN: But if you just heard our conversation with
 the mathematician Susan Landau, she argued that often metadata is more 
revealing than the transcript of an actual conversation. Do you think 
the law should change, Geoffrey Stone, to include this metadata?
GEOFFREY STONE: Well,
 I’m not persuaded by her argument that it’s more revealing. I do 
believe that it’s problematic, and I think, in fact, there should be 
statutes that prohibit the gathering of this type of data by private 
entities, as well as by the government, in the absence of at least a 
compelling justification. And I thought the Supreme Court’s decisions 
initially on this question were wrong. So I would certainly want to see 
them differently. But in terms of what the law is, it’s not 
unconstitutional, it’s not illegal, and it’s completely different from 
what the Bush administration was doing.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, do you agree that—
CHRIS HEDGES: Well, there are plenty of lawyers who disagree with Professor Stone.
GEOFFREY STONE: Not many.
CHRIS HEDGES: Well,
 the ACLU has just issued a lawsuit over this, claiming that it’s a 
violation of the Fourth Amendment. So, I haven’t done a poll. Frankly, 
the legal profession, under this steady assault of civil liberties, 
can’t hold its head very high. There are a few out there, at the ACLU—
GEOFFREY STONE: Unlike—unlike the journalistic profession?
CHRIS HEDGES: —Michael Ratner and a few others. But, you know—
AMY GOODMAN: Geoffrey Stone, aren’t you on the board of the ACLU, or were you?
GEOFFREY STONE: I’m on the National Advisory Council.
AMY GOODMAN: Yes. So what do you think of them suing the government over this?
GEOFFREY STONE: I
 think it’s great. I think that they are perfectly right to bring the 
question. That’s their job. Their job is to challenge whether or not 
things are constitutional, to raise those questions. That’s exactly what
 they should be doing. Doesn’t mean they’re always right, but they 
should be presenting these questions to the courts. That’s their job. 
That’s their responsibility.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, one of 
the problems that people have pointed to is that there aren’t procedures
 or mechanisms in place for people within the government to point out 
wrongdoing when it does occur. Do you think that’s one of the problems 
that’s occurred in this case with Edward Snowden? Or, for that matter, 
your most recent article was on Army whistleblower, Private Bradley 
Manning.
CHRIS HEDGES: Well, we used to have a mechanism. It was 
called the press. And we used to be able to tell our sources that they 
would be protected and that they would not be investigated for providing
 information that exposed the inner workings of power. Unfortunately, 
the press, like most institutions in this country, and I would add the 
legal profession, has largely collapsed under this corporate coup d’Ă©tat
 that’s taken place and is no longer functioning. And I want to get 
back, that what this is fundamentally a debate about is whether we are 
going to have, through the press, an independent institution within this
 country that can examine the inner workings of power or not. And it is 
now—I mean, many of us had suspected this widespread surveillance, but 
now that it’s confirmed, we’re seeing—you know, why did Snowden come out
 publicly? Well, because I think he knew that they would find out 
anyway, because they have all of Glenn Greenwald’s email, phone records 
and everything else, and they can very quickly find out who he was 
speaking to and whether Snowden had contact with him. And that—you know,
 I speak as reporter—is terrifying, because it essentially shuts down 
any ability to counter the official propaganda and the official 
narrative and expose the crimes. And we have seen in the last few years 
tremendous crimes being committed by those in power. We have no ability 
now to investigate them.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stone, let me ask 
you about whether the reporters from The Guardian and The Washington 
Post should be prosecuted. CNN’s Anderson Cooper put this question to 
Republican Congressmember Peter King of New York last night.
ANDERSON COOPER: As
 far as reporters who helped reveal these programs, do you believe 
something should happen to them? Do you believe they should be punished,
 as well?
REP. PETER KING: Actually, if 
they—if they willingly knew that this was classified information, I 
think actions should be taken, especially on something of this 
magnitude. I know that the whole issue of leaks has been gone into over 
the last month, but I think something on this magnitude, there is an 
obligation, both moral but also legal, I believe, against a reporter 
disclosing something which would so severely compromise national 
security.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stone, your response to what Peter King is saying?
GEOFFREY STONE: He’s
 just wrong. The Supreme Court, in the Pentagon Papers case, for 
example, made very clear that although Daniel Ellsberg could be 
prosecuted for—as a public official stealing information, that The New 
York Times and The Washington Post could not be restrained from 
publishing that information. The court has essentially held that 
although the government can control classified information at its source
 by prohibiting employees from revealing it, once the information goes 
out, it cannot then punish the press for publishing it. It’s a little 
bit odd as a system. But the idea is that, on the one hand, we have 
freedom of the press, which has to be preserved; on the other hand, the 
government has a legitimate interest in maintaining confidentiality at 
the source within the government itself. So, no, clearly, Greenwald and 
Reuters and so on, none of those can be — The Guardian, none of those 
can be punished, consistent with the First Amendment. That’s clear.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Professor
 Stone, so do you believe that Edward Snowden’s position is comparable 
to Daniel Ellsberg’s position with the Pentagon Papers and that The 
Guardian played a comparable role to The New York Times?
GEOFFREY STONE: So,
 I think Snowden’s position, based upon what I know now, is much worse. 
Ellsberg revealed historical information that had really no appreciable 
threat to the national security. It was all old information about what 
the government had done in the past. And what Snowden has revealed is 
information about ongoing programs, which, we’re told, are extremely 
important to the national security, and we’re told that the revelation 
of those programs makes them far less efficient. That’s a very 
serious—potentially very serious harm to the nation. That was not the 
case in Ellsberg’s situation.
AMY GOODMAN: But, Professor Stone—
GEOFFREY STONE: So I think, from that standpoint, what—
AMY GOODMAN: Henry Kissinger said—
GEOFFREY STONE: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: —Dan
 Ellsberg was "the most dangerous man in America," so they certainly—at 
that time, they were telling us that what he was doing was threatening 
national security.
GEOFFREY STONE: He said that at the time before
 they had an opportunity to really reflect on what was released. Years 
later, or even weeks later, that was no longer the case. So, I think 
that those two situations are not remotely comparable, in terms of the 
harm that Ellsberg did to the country, which I think was trivial, 
relative to what Snowden has done, which arguably is far more serious.
Let
 me make another point about civil liberties here, by the way, that it’s
 extremely important to understand that if you want to protect civil 
liberties in this country, you not only have to protect civil liberties,
 you also have to protect against terrorism, because what will destroy 
civil liberties in this country more effectively than anything else is 
another 9/11 attack. And if the government is not careful about that, 
and if we have more attacks like that, you can be sure that the kind of 
things the government is doing now are going to be regarded as small 
potatoes compared to what would happen in the future. So it’s very 
complicated, asking what’s the best way to protect civil liberties in 
the United States.
CHRIS HEDGES: I just don’t buy this argument 
that, you know, this hurts national security. I covered al-Qaeda for The
 New York Times, and, believe me, they know they’re being monitored. The
 whole idea that somehow it comes as a great surprise to jihadist groups
 that their emails, websites and phone calls are being tracked is 
absurd. This is—we’re talking about the wholesale collection of 
information on virtually most of the American public, and the 
consequences of that are truly terrifying. At that point, we are in 
essence snuffing out the capacity of any kind of investigation into the 
inner workings of power. And to throw out this notion that it 
harmed—this harmed national security, there’s no evidence for that, in 
the same way that there is no evidence that the information that Bradley
 Manning leaked in any way harmed national security. It didn’t. What the
 security and surveillance state is doing is playing on fear and using 
that fear to accrue to themselves tremendous forms of power that in a 
civil society, in a democracy, they should never have. And that’s the 
battle that’s underway right now, and, frankly, we’re losing.
AMY GOODMAN: I
 wanted to ask you, Professor Stone, to reflect on Martin Luther King’s 
letter from Birmingham jail written April 16, 1963, when he said, "One 
who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who 
willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the 
conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing
 the highest respect for law." ... 
Could you respond to that?
GEOFFREY STONE: Sure.
 Obviously, King is right. The question is whether it’s an unjust law. 
So, people who violate a law because they think it is unjust don’t 
necessarily fit within the letter from the Birmingham jail. King was 
talking about protesting racial segregation, and that’s a little bit 
different in terms of the moral status of it. Now, maybe it’s true. I 
mean, maybe Chris Hedges is right, and maybe that—that Snowden is a 
hero, and maybe this is all a fraud on the part of the government, this 
information serves no useful purpose, and it’s fundamentally important 
to the United States that it’s been revealed. Maybe that’s true. And if 
it turns out to be true, then I’ll be the first to say Snowden was a 
hero. But at the moment, I have absolutely no reason to believe that. 
And to say that some people act on legitimate conscience and therefore 
violate unjust laws is not to say that everyone who violates a law is 
Martin Luther King in the Birmingham jail.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to 
put that question to Chris, but I wanted to ask you, Geoffrey Stone, if 
you were Edward Snowden’s attorney, what arguments would you put forward
 for him right now?
GEOFFREY STONE: Legally, I don’t think he 
has—honestly, I don’t think he has any legal arguments that would be a 
defense to the charge that he violated the law about government 
contractors not disclosing classified information to persons who are not
 authorized to receive it. I don’t think he has a defense. Some people 
commit a crime, and they committed the crime. And I don’t know that 
there’s any defense sometimes.
AMY GOODMAN: Interestingly, Dan 
Ellsberg faced treason trial, but ultimately, the—he ended up being 
exonerated because of the illegal wiretapping that was done of him.
GEOFFREY STONE: Well,
 he wasn’t exonerated. In his case, the judge dropped the charges 
against him because the Nixon administration searched his psychiatrist’s
 office in violation of the Constitution, and the judge concluded that 
that was prosecutorial misconduct, and therefore dismissed the 
prosecution. If the government does something similar in Snowden’s case 
and the court finds that it’s a violation of his constitutional rights 
in the course of the investigation and dismisses the charges, that would
 be something, as his lawyer, I’d certainly want to know. But on the 
merits of the charge as they presently—as it presently stands, I think 
it’s a sentencing question, not a criminality question.
AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, if you could respond to the King quote and the significance of what Snowden did?
CHRIS HEDGES: Well,
 without figures like Snowden, without figures like Manning, without 
figures like Julian Assange, essentially, the blinds are drawn. We have 
no window into what’s being done in our name, including the crimes that 
are being done in our name. Again, I—you know, having worked as an 
investigative reporter, the lifeblood of my work were figures like 
these, who had the moral courage to stand up and name the crimes that 
they witnessed. And these people are always, at the moment that they 
stand up—and even King, of course, was persecuted and reviled and 
denounced, hounded by J. Edgar Hoover, who attempted, through blackmail,
 to get him to commit suicide before accepting the Nobel Prize. Let’s 
not forget that all of these figures, like Snowden, come under this 
character assassination, which, frankly, I think Professor Stone is 
engaging in. And that’s not uncommon. That’s what comes with the 
territory when you carry out an act of conscience. It’s a very lonely 
and frightening—and it makes these figures, like Snowden, deeply 
courageous, because, I mean, the whole debate—traitor or 
whistleblower—for me, you know, hearing this on the press is watching 
the press commit collective suicide, because without those figures, 
there is no press.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to end with Professor 
Stone. You were an early adviser to President Obama. You gave him his 
first job at University of Chicago Law School. You were the dean of the 
University of Chicago Law School. What would you advise him today?
GEOFFREY STONE: I
 think there needs to be a really careful re-evaluation of the 
classification system. I—there’s no question that we wildly 
overclassify, and that creates all sorts of problems, both for the press
 and for the ability of the government to keep secrets, because if you 
try to keep everything secret, you don’t effectively keep very much 
secret. So I think that’s critical. I think there is a serious question 
about how we make the trade-off between security and privacy, and I 
think that that’s an issue that needs to be addressed carefully. 
Certainly, within the administration and within the government, to the 
extent there are genuinely secret policies that need to be kept secret, 
and I believe that perfectly possible, then I think that does not 
immunize them from serious debate by responsible people within the four 
corners of the administration, bringing in people who can have national 
security clearances to take the devil’s advocate position and challenge 
these issues. So I think there’s a lot that can and should be done, and I
 think that it’s easy to get swept up in the notion of security being 
the be all and end all. This is a nation that’s committed to individual 
privacy, to freedom of the press, to freedom of speech, and those values
 need to be respected. And I think government constantly has to be 
re-examining itself, because all the temptations are in the wrong 
direction.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Professor Geoffrey Stone, before we conclude, I’d like to ask you about an 
article you
 wrote in 2011 for The New York Times called "Our Untransparent 
President." You wrote, quote, "The record of the Obama administration on
 this fundamental issue of American democracy has surely fallen short of
 expectations. This is a lesson in 'trust us.' Those in power are always
 certain that they themselves will act reasonably, and they resist 
limits on their own discretion. The problem is, 'trust us' is no way to 
run a self-governing society," end-quote. What’s your assessment of the 
comments that you made then relative to now and his—Obama’s record on 
transparency and civil liberties?
GEOFFREY STONE: Well, I think 
the comment was correct then, and I think it’s correct today. I think 
that there’s a temptation on the part of public officials to basically 
say, "We don’t to be hassled, we don’t want to be bothered, we don’t 
want to be criticized, so we’ll just do what’s in the best interest of 
the country, and we don’t have to tell anybody about it." And that’s a 
huge danger in a democracy. And—but the fact that I accept that and 
passionately believe it does not mean that everything the government 
does in confidence and in secret should not be in confidence or in 
secret. The problem is where to draw the line.
So, yes, I would 
criticize the Obama administration, in general, for being overly 
concerned with secrecy and not being sufficiently transparent. The point
 I made earlier about overclassification is a good example. But at the 
same time, I do recognize that there are situations in which secrecy is 
critical, and the problem is being able to discern when that’s necessary
 and when it’s not. And to do that, you need to have people within the 
debate who are internally challenging the necessity for secrecy and 
confidentiality. I don’t think the Obama administration has done a very 
good job of that.
AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, just 30 seconds, and I know that you were attending the Bradley Manning trial, but linking the two.
CHRIS HEDGES: Well,
 we’re talking about the death of a free press, the death of a civil 
society. This is far beyond a reasonable debate. We make the East German
 Stasi state look like the Boy Scouts. And if we don’t wrest back this 
power for privacy, for the capacity to investigate what our power elite 
is doing, I think we can essentially say our democracy has been snuffed 
out.